Speaking of "American" Thanksgiving

[jmcquown]

Just musing. I find it interesting that North American people glom onto
turkey as the thing to eat at Thanksgiving. The first so called
"thanksgiving" in 1621 involved turkey, yes. But also duck and other
water fowl.

They didn't have mashed potatoes & gravy. Or pumpkin pie. Definitely
not pecan pie. :) They didn't have potatoes of any kind in 1621 in the
Massachusetts colony. In fact, the colony had just come off a horrific
winter in which nearly every woman in the colony had died. There were
only 30 men and a few children left who were dining with the Wampanoag
tribe.

They ate roasted venison. They ate beans, peas and squash. The corn
they ate was likely ground into mush or made into flat bread over a
fire. Remember, the "Pilgrims" didn't have ovens. They cooked meat
over open spits. Or boiled it. They also had oysters and roasted eels.
By all accounts, the Massachusetts bay area was teeming with eels.

Anyone having eels for Thanksgiving? Or roasted venison?

This was just for fun. I didn't cook eels or venison today, either.
But I also didn't cook a turkey. ;)

Jill

[gm]

A Thanksgiving Lesson

https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2004/11/a_thanksgiving_.html

A Thanksgiving Lesson

by Alex Tabarrok November 24, 2004 - Marginal Revolution

"It’s one of the ironies of American history that when the Pilgrims
first arrived at Plymouth rock they promptly set about creating a
communist society. Of course, they were soon starving to death...

Fortunately, "after much debate of things," Governor William Bradford
ended corn collectivism, decreeing that each family should keep the corn
that it produced. In one of the most insightful statements of political
economy ever penned, Bradford described the results of the new and old
systems:

'[Ending corn collectivism] had very good success, for it made all hands
very industrious,
so as much more corn was planted than otherwise
would have been by any means the Governor or any other
could use, and saved him a great deal of trouble, and gave
far better content...

The women now went willingly into the
field, and took their little ones with them to set corn;
which before would allege weakness and inability; whom
to have compelled would have been thought great tyranny
and oppression.

For the
young men, that were most able and fit for labour and
service, did repine that they should spend their time and
strength to work for other men’s wives and children without
any recompense. The strong, or man of parts, had no
more in division of victuals and clothes than he that was
weak and not able to do a quarter the other could; this
was thought injustice...

The aged and graver men to be
ranked and equalized in labours and victuals, clothes, etc.,
with the meaner and younger sort, thought it some indignity
and disrespect unto them...

And for men’s wives to be
commanded to do service for other men, as dressing their
meat, washing their clothes, etc., they deemed it a kind of
slavery, neither could many husbands well brook it. Upon
the point all being to have alike, and all to do alike, they
thought themselves in the like condition, and one as good
as another; and so, if it did not cut off those relations that
God hath set amongst men, yet it did at least much diminish
and take off the mutual respects that should be preserved
amongst them. And would have been worse if they
had been men of another condition. Let none object this
is men’s corruption, and nothing to the course itself. I answer,
seeing all men have this corruption in them, God in
His wisdom saw another course fitter for them...'

Among Bradford’s many insights it’s amazing that he saw so clearly how
collectivism failed not only as an economic system but that even among
godly men "it did at least much diminish and take off the mutual
respects that should be preserved amongst them." And it shocks me to my
core when he writes that to make the collectivist system work would have
required "great tyranny and oppression."

Can you imagine how much pain the twentieth century could have avoided
if Bradford’s insights been more widely recognized...???"

--
GM

--

[Hank Rogers]

Post by gm
A Thanksgiving Lesson
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2004/11/a_thanksgiving_.html
A Thanksgiving Lesson
by Alex Tabarrok November 24, 2004 - Marginal Revolution
"It’s one of the ironies of American history that when the Pilgrims
first arrived at Plymouth rock they promptly set about creating a
communist society.  Of course, they were soon starving to death...
Fortunately, "after much debate of things," Governor William Bradford
ended corn collectivism, decreeing that each family should keep the corn
that it produced.  In one of the most insightful statements of political
economy ever penned, Bradford described the results of the new and old
'[Ending corn collectivism] had very good success, for it made all hands
very industrious,
so as much more corn was planted than otherwise
would have been by any means the Governor or any other
could use, and saved him a great deal of trouble, and gave
far better content...
The women now went willingly into the
field, and took their little ones with them to set corn;
which before would allege weakness and inability; whom
to have compelled would have been thought great tyranny
and oppression.
For the
young men, that were most able and fit for labour and
service, did repine that they should spend their time and
strength to work for other men’s wives and children without
any recompense. The strong, or man of parts, had no
more in division of victuals and clothes than he that was
weak and not able to do a quarter the other could; this
was thought injustice...
The aged and graver men to be
ranked and equalized in labours and victuals, clothes, etc.,
with the meaner and younger sort, thought it some indignity
and disrespect unto them...
And for men’s wives to be
commanded to do service for other men, as dressing their
meat, washing their clothes, etc., they deemed it a kind of
slavery, neither could many husbands well brook it. Upon
the point all being to have alike, and all to do alike, they
thought themselves in the like condition, and one as good
as another; and so, if it did not cut off those relations that
God hath set amongst men, yet it did at least much diminish
and take off the mutual respects that should be preserved
amongst them. And would have been worse if they
had been men of another condition. Let none object this
is men’s corruption, and nothing to the course itself. I answer,
seeing all men have this corruption in them, God in
His wisdom saw another course fitter for them...'
Among Bradford’s many insights it’s amazing that he saw so clearly how
collectivism failed not only as an economic system but that even among
godly men "it did at least much diminish and take off the mutual
respects that should be preserved amongst them."  And it shocks me to my
core when he writes that to make the collectivist system work would have
required "great tyranny and oppression."
Can you imagine how much pain the twentieth century could have avoided
if Bradford’s insights been more widely recognized...???"
--
GM
--

We don't have to give any thoughts about that goddamn communist
bradford. We have Trump now, so all our problems will be solved on or
before Jan 20. !00% for sure.

He's promised that.

[gm]

Post by Hank Rogers

Post by gm
A Thanksgiving Lesson
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2004/11/a_thanksgiving_.html
A Thanksgiving Lesson
by Alex Tabarrok November 24, 2004 - Marginal Revolution
"It’s one of the ironies of American history that when the Pilgrims
first arrived at Plymouth rock they promptly set about creating a
communist society.  Of course, they were soon starving to death...
Fortunately, "after much debate of things," Governor William Bradford
ended corn collectivism, decreeing that each family should keep the corn
that it produced.  In one of the most insightful statements of political
economy ever penned, Bradford described the results of the new and old
'[Ending corn collectivism] had very good success, for it made all hands
very industrious,
so as much more corn was planted than otherwise
would have been by any means the Governor or any other
could use, and saved him a great deal of trouble, and gave
far better content...
The women now went willingly into the
field, and took their little ones with them to set corn;
which before would allege weakness and inability; whom
to have compelled would have been thought great tyranny
and oppression.
For the
young men, that were most able and fit for labour and
service, did repine that they should spend their time and
strength to work for other men’s wives and children without
any recompense. The strong, or man of parts, had no
more in division of victuals and clothes than he that was
weak and not able to do a quarter the other could; this
was thought injustice...
The aged and graver men to be
ranked and equalized in labours and victuals, clothes, etc.,
with the meaner and younger sort, thought it some indignity
and disrespect unto them...
And for men’s wives to be
commanded to do service for other men, as dressing their
meat, washing their clothes, etc., they deemed it a kind of
slavery, neither could many husbands well brook it. Upon
the point all being to have alike, and all to do alike, they
thought themselves in the like condition, and one as good
as another; and so, if it did not cut off those relations that
God hath set amongst men, yet it did at least much diminish
and take off the mutual respects that should be preserved
amongst them. And would have been worse if they
had been men of another condition. Let none object this
is men’s corruption, and nothing to the course itself. I answer,
seeing all men have this corruption in them, God in
His wisdom saw another course fitter for them...'
Among Bradford’s many insights it’s amazing that he saw so clearly how
collectivism failed not only as an economic system but that even among
godly men "it did at least much diminish and take off the mutual
respects that should be preserved amongst them."  And it shocks me to my
core when he writes that to make the collectivist system work would have
required "great tyranny and oppression."
Can you imagine how much pain the twentieth century could have avoided
if Bradford’s insights been more widely recognized...???"
-
GM
-

We don't have to give any thoughts about that goddamn communist
bradford. We have Trump now, so all our problems will be solved on or
before Jan 20. !00% for sure.
He's promised that.

YUP, Sire Hank, after January 20th, we'll ALL be a - livin' in "High
Cotton"...

Like down in DATAW...

High Cotton:

en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/high_cotton

"The term "high cotton" or "tall cotton" originates from the rural
farming community in the antebellum (pre-Civil War) South when "high
cotton" meant that the crops were good and the prices were, too...

The term has generalized to mean one is doing well or is successful..."

🐸

--
GM

--

[gm]

Post by Hank Rogers

Post by gm
A Thanksgiving Lesson
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2004/11/a_thanksgiving_.html
A Thanksgiving Lesson
by Alex Tabarrok November 24, 2004 - Marginal Revolution
"It’s one of the ironies of American history that when the Pilgrims
first arrived at Plymouth rock they promptly set about creating a
communist society.  Of course, they were soon starving to death...
Fortunately, "after much debate of things," Governor William Bradford
ended corn collectivism, decreeing that each family should keep the corn
that it produced.  In one of the most insightful statements of political
economy ever penned, Bradford described the results of the new and old
'[Ending corn collectivism] had very good success, for it made all hands
very industrious,
so as much more corn was planted than otherwise
would have been by any means the Governor or any other
could use, and saved him a great deal of trouble, and gave
far better content...
The women now went willingly into the
field, and took their little ones with them to set corn;
which before would allege weakness and inability; whom
to have compelled would have been thought great tyranny
and oppression.
For the
young men, that were most able and fit for labour and
service, did repine that they should spend their time and
strength to work for other men’s wives and children without
any recompense. The strong, or man of parts, had no
more in division of victuals and clothes than he that was
weak and not able to do a quarter the other could; this
was thought injustice...
The aged and graver men to be
ranked and equalized in labours and victuals, clothes, etc.,
with the meaner and younger sort, thought it some indignity
and disrespect unto them...
And for men’s wives to be
commanded to do service for other men, as dressing their
meat, washing their clothes, etc., they deemed it a kind of
slavery, neither could many husbands well brook it. Upon
the point all being to have alike, and all to do alike, they
thought themselves in the like condition, and one as good
as another; and so, if it did not cut off those relations that
God hath set amongst men, yet it did at least much diminish
and take off the mutual respects that should be preserved
amongst them. And would have been worse if they
had been men of another condition. Let none object this
is men’s corruption, and nothing to the course itself. I answer,
seeing all men have this corruption in them, God in
His wisdom saw another course fitter for them...'
Among Bradford’s many insights it’s amazing that he saw so clearly how
collectivism failed not only as an economic system but that even among
godly men "it did at least much diminish and take off the mutual
respects that should be preserved amongst them."  And it shocks me to my
core when he writes that to make the collectivist system work would have
required "great tyranny and oppression."
Can you imagine how much pain the twentieth century could have avoided
if Bradford’s insights been more widely recognized...???"
--
GM
--

We don't have to give any thoughts about that goddamn communist
bradford. We have Trump now, so all our problems will be solved on or
before Jan 20. !00% for sure.
He's promised that.

Joe Rogan’s endorsement of President TRUMP was viewed as a MASSIVE
success... eventually seen by 60 MILLION viewers...

The former and upcoming president had joined Rogan on his podcast for a
three-hour interview ahead of the election...

Harris was offered the same interview, but Rogan rejected her campaign's
requests to shorten the interview and move it out of the studio, he
previously said...

:-D

--
GM

--

[D]

Post by gm
A Thanksgiving Lesson
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2004/11/a_thanksgiving_.html
A Thanksgiving Lesson
by Alex Tabarrok November 24, 2004 - Marginal Revolution
"It’s one of the ironies of American history that when the Pilgrims
first arrived at Plymouth rock they promptly set about creating a
communist society. Of course, they were soon starving to death...
Fortunately, "after much debate of things," Governor William Bradford
ended corn collectivism, decreeing that each family should keep the corn
that it produced. In one of the most insightful statements of political
economy ever penned, Bradford described the results of the new and old
'[Ending corn collectivism] had very good success, for it made all hands
very industrious,
so as much more corn was planted than otherwise
would have been by any means the Governor or any other
could use, and saved him a great deal of trouble, and gave
far better content...
The women now went willingly into the
field, and took their little ones with them to set corn;
which before would allege weakness and inability; whom
to have compelled would have been thought great tyranny
and oppression.
For the
young men, that were most able and fit for labour and
service, did repine that they should spend their time and
strength to work for other men’s wives and children without
any recompense. The strong, or man of parts, had no
more in division of victuals and clothes than he that was
weak and not able to do a quarter the other could; this
was thought injustice...
The aged and graver men to be
ranked and equalized in labours and victuals, clothes, etc.,
with the meaner and younger sort, thought it some indignity
and disrespect unto them...
And for men’s wives to be
commanded to do service for other men, as dressing their
meat, washing their clothes, etc., they deemed it a kind of
slavery, neither could many husbands well brook it. Upon
the point all being to have alike, and all to do alike, they
thought themselves in the like condition, and one as good
as another; and so, if it did not cut off those relations that
God hath set amongst men, yet it did at least much diminish
and take off the mutual respects that should be preserved
amongst them. And would have been worse if they
had been men of another condition. Let none object this
is men’s corruption, and nothing to the course itself. I answer,
seeing all men have this corruption in them, God in
His wisdom saw another course fitter for them...'
Among Bradford’s many insights it’s amazing that he saw so clearly how
collectivism failed not only as an economic system but that even among
godly men "it did at least much diminish and take off the mutual
respects that should be preserved amongst them." And it shocks me to my
core when he writes that to make the collectivist system work would have
required "great tyranny and oppression."
Can you imagine how much pain the twentieth century could have avoided
if Bradford’s insights been more widely recognized...???"
--
GM
--

It is a very beautiful story, with an important lesson! I find it
inspiring that countless american families gather together at
thanksgiving, retelling this story, to keep the spirit of freedom and
capitalism alive! =)

[Cindy Hamilton]

Post by jmcquown
Just musing. I find it interesting that North American people glom onto
turkey as the thing to eat at Thanksgiving. The first so called
"thanksgiving" in 1621 involved turkey, yes. But also duck and other
water fowl.
They didn't have mashed potatoes & gravy. Or pumpkin pie. Definitely
not pecan pie. :) They didn't have potatoes of any kind in 1621 in the
Massachusetts colony. In fact, the colony had just come off a horrific
winter in which nearly every woman in the colony had died. There were
only 30 men and a few children left who were dining with the Wampanoag
tribe.
They ate roasted venison. They ate beans, peas and squash. The corn
they ate was likely ground into mush or made into flat bread over a
fire. Remember, the "Pilgrims" didn't have ovens. They cooked meat
over open spits. Or boiled it. They also had oysters and roasted eels.
By all accounts, the Massachusetts bay area was teeming with eels.
Anyone having eels for Thanksgiving? Or roasted venison?
This was just for fun. I didn't cook eels or venison today, either.
But I also didn't cook a turkey. ;)

Thanksgiving is not a historical re-creation.

[BryanGSimmons]

Just musing.  I find it interesting that North American people glom
onto turkey as the thing to eat at Thanksgiving.  The first so called
"thanksgiving" in 1621 involved turkey, yes.  But also duck and other
water fowl.
They didn't have mashed potatoes & gravy.  Or pumpkin pie.  Definitely
not pecan pie. :)  They didn't have potatoes of any kind in 1621 in
the Massachusetts colony.  In fact, the colony had just come off a
horrific winter in which nearly every woman in the colony had died.
There were only 30 men and a few children left who were dining with
the Wampanoag tribe.
They ate roasted venison.  They ate beans, peas and squash.  The corn
they ate was likely ground into mush or made into flat bread over a
fire.  Remember, the "Pilgrims" didn't have ovens.  They cooked meat
over open spits.  Or boiled it.  They also had oysters and roasted
eels.   By all accounts, the Massachusetts bay area was teeming with
eels.
Anyone having eels for Thanksgiving?  Or roasted venison?
This was just for fun.  I didn't cook eels or venison today, either.
But I also didn't cook a turkey. ;)
Jill

Thanks, your Majesty. I'd never thought about what they did so long ago.
I bet your majesty was pretty young back then. How was the roasted venison?

Imagine if instead of Turkey Day, we called it Eel Day.